More than two years as an active participant in the Bloggernacle almost had me convinced that BYU was a bad thing. This was based on so many negative posts and comments about BYU and the BYU experience (too many to link). And I have been candid that in some contexts, having BYU on your resume could be a negative thing (but this minor criticism is entirely different from the criticisms of BYU in the Bloggernacle over the last couple of years to which I am referring).
But last week, Allison and I decided to take the kids to lunch and ice-cream in the Cougareat on our way down to a weekend in St. George. Just eating lunch there with my family during a busy school day crowded with students of all kinds, and with the Cougareat crowded with booths for student elections and for other clubs and campus societies, including vocal groups standing around singing, etc., was enough to remind me that BYU is good. I was proud to sit at a table with my young daughters next to a table of very loud and conspicuous Arabic-speakers (I thought Americans were supposed to be the loud conspicuous ones in public places), another table of Japanese girls speaking Japanese (much more familiar to my daughters since their aunt is Japanese), and a group of Spanish speakers. I thought it was interesting that we randomly sat among such diversity at the supposedly jingoistic BYU campus.
BYU is more than good. It is a wonderful place to live and learn; it most certainly does not deserve the negative evaluations of it that are so common in the Bloggernacle. The teachers (whom I know and experienced) are good; the students are good; the lifestyle is exceptionally good; the knowledge is wonderful; the means by which the knowledge is transmitted is enlightening and inspiring; and the common purpose is divinely authorized. I am grateful I went there and experienced it. I would be delighted if my daughters chose to do so as well.
March 13, 2006 at 12:01 pm |
I loved BYU, and will never regret my decision to have gone there. Whenver I go to Utah (a much too infrequent event these days), I make sure to pay a visit to BYU and soak in the atmosphere of learning and spirituality which I learned to love so much during my time there.
So what if BYU forever labels me a mormon? I’m glad it does- because I am!
I do not think that having “BYU” on my resume will limit in any way the types of opportunities I will be presented with. And if it did, then I have cast my lot and I will stick with it.
Nice post, John! It made me very nostalgic.
March 13, 2006 at 12:02 pm |
I fully agree. Yes you can have a bad time at BYU – typically because I think ones expectations are perhaps off. But if you want more diversity then it might not be for you. I think that perhaps those from very Mormon areas would benefit from going elsewhere. But for those from areas with fewer Mormos it was well worth it.
Further a very small minority of people tend to get a disproportionate focus and criticism. Yes there are a small group of unthinking and judgemental folks. But frankly you’ll find those at every university. The political/religious beliefs they latched onto at BYU are simply different.
And yes, you’ll find all the sins at BYU you find elsewhere. Just in a different proportion and perhaps with different levels of acceptance.
But overall BYU really offers a lot of opportunities. And the limitations are (in my mind) vastly exaggerated.
March 13, 2006 at 12:17 pm |
I went to BYU having grown up in Texas. It was completely different than anything I had ever experienced, or am likely to ever experience again, save in the unlikely event that I get to teach there someday.
My later experiences as a graduate student at both Oxford and the University of Michigan seemed more normal to my life experience (being the only LDS in a large group of people as now).
March 13, 2006 at 12:39 pm |
I was profoundly unhappy at BYU. Part of that is Utah culture; I’ve never been comfortable in Utah. Part of it was a collection of terribly unfair and unjust things that have happened to me, my family, and a few close friends at BYU. Part of it was what I suppose to have been terrible luck of the draw with religion teachers and bishops; I was consistently exposed to the retrograde, dogmatic variant of Mormonism that downplays the importance of Jesus Christ, and that didn’t work for me. But the main thing was that I knew through all of it that I was never supposed to go there in the first place. It had never seemed right, and I don’t think God wanted me to be there.
I would never encourage anyone to attend BYU because of some of the things that various institutions and leaders there have done to people I care about. But I understand that the place is probably better for a lot of people than it was for me.
March 13, 2006 at 12:56 pm |
I was profoundly unhappy at BYU. Part of that is Utah culture; I’ve never been comfortable in Utah. Part of it was a collection of terribly unfair and unjust things that have happened to me, my family, and a few close friends at BYU.
Fortunately (or perhaps unfortunately), BYU is not alone in this sort of critique. People could probably say the same thing about any University in America. As an instructor at the University of Michigan-Ann Arbor for nearly 5 years, I hear a the same sentiment expressed by students there (though the religious overtones were obviously lacking). Those problems are perhaps institutional deficiencies that run across America’s universities, but more likely a result of personal perceptions and disposition than anything else.
The point is that any school will have people who were “very unhappy there”.
March 13, 2006 at 1:29 pm |
RT: it is interesting that you say this. When we were hanging out together at BYU, I was not aware that you were so miserable there. Ironically, if I do say so myself, I was much more “counter-culture” than you since I was a punk skateboarder skipping class more than attending and trying to avoid honor code violations while still dying my hair. (Didn’t we debate at one point whether orange was a “natural color” or not?) I am not questioning your miserable experience, just pointing out that it is interesting that I did not share that experience. We had different bishops and religion professors, I guess.
Another thing might be the fact that, aside from the couple of years that I spent attending grade school with you in SLC, I grew up in Dallas and so coming to BYU was for me something totally new. It was a wonderful feeling to be living among so many people who shared my same beliefs. Even as a punk skateboarder, I greatly enjoyed the spirit of campus. I never thought of BYU as a closed-minded place even when I was running away from campus police for skateboarding on campus. It wasn’t until reading the Bloggernacle that I found out so many people thought BYU was some kind of hellhole.
I am saddened that you disliked BYU so much.
March 13, 2006 at 1:39 pm |
Jordan, I’m pretty familiar with a couple of universities other than BYU, as well, and I know that things can go wrong elsewhere. (Ask me someday about the sad story of the FedEx fellowship.) But I’ve never had someone at another university tell me that a wrong decision was being made because God wants it that way. It’s a distinction that makes a difference. Also, as a side note, I’ve never seen the degree of sexism that still exists in some parts of BYU at any other university.
John F., there are lots of kinds of “counter-culture,” aren’t there? Someone who is toward the left of the American political spectrum and who has trouble deciding whether God exists, and if so if he’s good or evil, might arguably be even more marginal at BYU than a punk skateboarder…
D. Michael Quinn’s famous statement that BYU is an “Auschwitz of the mind” is, in my opinion, preposterously overblown. But for me it was a spiritual trial by fire. In light of my personal lack of fit there, as well as the unjust things I’m mentioning but not elaborating on, I’m a bit proud of the fact that I got through BYU with any feeling of connection to the Mormon church whatsoever!
March 13, 2006 at 1:40 pm |
Eek. Terrible HTML typo! Sorry!!!
March 13, 2006 at 1:50 pm |
Fixed it.
I am glad that you still have your connection to the Church. Again, I am sorry that you did not like BYU. I wish it could have been different. It is a wonderful place (or it was for me and my wife and others that we know).
March 13, 2006 at 1:58 pm |
I am east coast born and raised through and through. I currently live in Florida. I joined the Church at age 19 and went to BYU six months later. No one in my family had any mormon experiences (including me prior to baptism). I got a part-time job working as a custodian in the MTC and I loved it. While Utah culture leaves something to be desired at times, the campus and the people are wonderful and the professors really take time to help the students. It was so different from Wharton where I was attending. I wouldn’t trade my experience there for anything.
And having it on my resume has NEVER hindered my professional opportunities.
March 13, 2006 at 3:32 pm |
I had a great time at BYU and would recomend it for most all majors. BTW, I died my hair maroon my freshman year…I had no idea that I was breaking honor code (noone else realized it either).
March 13, 2006 at 4:13 pm |
BYU was great. Lot’s of hot chicks. Great design program. I didn’t really need much else
March 13, 2006 at 7:06 pm |
RT, given Quinn’s personal issues while at BYU I’m not sure he’s a fair voice. His was rather a more unique situation. I can certainly understand his being under more stress. However knowing a few people who were involved with him at the time, I’m not sure I agree with his actions (and thereby his conclusions)
March 13, 2006 at 8:34 pm |
“I was profoundly unhappy at BYU…Part of it was a collection of terribly unfair and unjust things that have happened to me, my family, and a few close friends at BYU.”
RT, amen! This was my experience too. The difference, of course, being that I left BYU after two years and graduated elsewhere. John Fowles is probably thinking of some of my posts from the early days when referencing the Bloggernacle…
One other thing, for me, it’s not a stretch to see BYU as good thing for some people. Whenever these conversations come up (either here in the Bloggernacle or in the real world), I find it interesting that people praising BYU find it difficult to comprehend those of us who had such profoundly negative experiences. But I’ve found the opposite almost never holds true: Those of us having negative experiences aren’t shocked to find others having good experiences.
March 13, 2006 at 9:12 pm |
I have good friends and family–people that I love and enjoy being with–that I would not want to live with. That’s kind of like me and BYU.
I’ve always loved BYU–I wanted to go there as long as I can remember. I had a great experience and I still love BYU–I love to go back and visit. I just don’t like being “roommates” with BYU.
March 13, 2006 at 9:24 pm |
Good on ya, John Fowles. I went to BYU expecting to hate it and had the time of my life.
March 13, 2006 at 9:52 pm |
J. Stapley, as a practical matter, BYU is somewhat of an obstacle for students in the social sciences who plan to attend graduate school — although perhaps not that much more than institutions with comparable reputations, such as Utah State University. It’s just important, I think, for such students to realize that BYU in the social sciences has an adequate but not excellent reputation. This may be religious bias, but I think it has more to do with the lack of Ph.D. programs.
Clark, I agree that Quinn’s statement about BYU was unhelpful. I quoted it primarily as something to differentiate myself from. Whereas Quinn seems to have felt that BYU couldn’t really be good for anyone, I understand that it can be a good experience for a lot of people (although it’s a bit of a roll-the-dice-and-take-your-chances situation; the people who get treated badly don’t necessarily know in advance that they will be).
And, John, if I’d kept in better touch with you while I was there, perhaps I’d have liked BYU more!
March 13, 2006 at 10:33 pm |
Bob, I certainly don’t doubt people can and do have negative experiences at BYU. It’d definitely not for everyone. I just worry when people move from their subjective experiences to objective claims regarding BYU. No facility is good for everyone. Each has their own strengths.
I suspect though that the typical Mormon would enjoy BYU. Further I think that many criticisms regarding the academics is unfortunate. Although as RT points out, some fields might be more problematic. I don’t know about the soft sciences but certainly many fields within the humanities are. Outside of those (typically fields simultaneously with a deeply problematic relationship with religion as well) I think BYU does amazingly well. That’s not to say you’ll have as challenging a core as you would at say Yale. But you’ll have a good education and be able to easily go to an excellent grad school. (Assuming your grades and entrance exams are good)
March 14, 2006 at 9:16 am |
RoastedTomatoes: “Part of it was what I suppose to have been terrible luck of the draw with religion teachers ….”
That, at least, was your own fault. My choice of religion teachers was never “luck of the draw.” They weren’t all universally great — but the ones I chose specifically certainly were most notably Book of Mormon with Stan Taylor; Gospel Principles with Tom Rogers; Old Testament with Victor Ludlow. If I’d left my choices to luck (or convenient scheduling — that Tom Rogers class was at 7a) I’m sure my experiences wouldn’t have been nearly so good.
March 14, 2006 at 9:51 am |
Bob, honestly, I wasn’t thinking specifically of your earlier posts, although they might have contributed subliminally to the overall impression that I was observing in this post. There have been many posts and comments in the Bloggernacle over time that are very negative toward BYU. Without invalidating these people’s experiences, and sorry that they had bad experiences, I wanted to point out that others (myself included) find it to be a wonderful place.
I also have had wonderful experiences at other universities, particularly at Oxford. I would fully support my daughters’ choice to do their undergraduate work at Oxford instead of BYU. I have often wished that I could have done so. It is such a great place. Maybe I am just enamored with the concept of the university an sich and would have been in hog heaven as an undergraduate at any university! I suspect this is the case.
But visiting BYU after the fact, I am reminded of something special about it. For a Latter-day Saint not raised in Utah, it was a remarkable experience to live, study, and work among thousands of people my age (a very diverse group actually) with one unifying aspect about them: we shared the same religion. It was great.
RT: It is too true that we didn’t hang out enough after the missions. Things have worked out well for you, though, Herr Professor Doktor S. Perhaps attending BYU was still a net positive for you?
March 14, 2006 at 10:13 am |
Funny. I never went to BYU-Provo(all my family did but me) I went to Hawaii and had a great time (despite my rather dramatic clashes with the honor code and certain faculty in the english dept and leaving after 2 years). However, I have always had bitter feelings about BYU because of the general church’s attitude towards it (in my experience). When I was graduating HS the general consensus (in Texas, in an area with almost 150 youth in one ward) was that you HAD to go to BYU…or somehow you failed. It was like, if you cant get in to Provo, go to Ricks. As a last resort, BYUH was the ’slacker’ byu, for those who were bad kids. It was like, if you are a good Mormon kid, you go to BYU and you dont even consider anything else, even if you are prodigy with a full ride to Harvard or something. The feeling in this area tends to still be this way. It drives me nuts and makes me really SICK of BYU and definitly made me not want to go there (well, besides the snow). Has anyone else had similar experiences?
March 14, 2006 at 11:13 am |
That’s interesting, Veritas, because I have lived here in Texas nearly my entire life and have NEVER felt such sentiments from my fellow ward members. Maybe you were just ultra-sensitive to something some ultra-rude church member said.
In my experience here in Texas wards, University of Texas and A&M seem to reign supreme among members, with BYU or any other church school trailing a close second or third.
But I never heard any of this “if you are a good Mormon kid you go to BYU” crap- not even when I was a teenager here in Texas. It was more- “if you HAVE to leave Texas, then maybe BYU would be an acceptable choice, because we can understand wanting to be where other LDS are. But why would ANYONE leave Texas???”
In Texas, that is the overriding sentiment, in my experience.
March 14, 2006 at 11:23 am |
John, funny you should mention that. The faculty members who made the biggest contributions to getting me into my graduate program were rather unceremoniously dumped by BYU — one of them at the end of my last year there, another a couple of years later…
March 14, 2006 at 2:47 pm |
John, thanks for this post. I was extremely bitter about going to BYU, regarded my attendance as a bitter trick of fate, and was fully prepared to be miserable. I found, to my surprise, that I really enjoyed the place. Part of this comes, I think, from certain lowered expectations. Frankly, I never expected any of my religion classes to be any good. Most of them were not, but it did mean that I was pleasantly surprised when some of them were very good. I also had the good fortune to have Jim Faulconer and some other excellent professors my first year (although I also had one that referred to as “the anti-tenure poster boy”). What I most enjoyed, however, was the supply of smart, thoughtful young Mormons to talk to.
I can fully understand why someone could have a very negative reaction to BYU, and I think that it would be a very bad place for certain people to go.
March 14, 2006 at 2:49 pm |
BTW, I agree with RT that BYU’s academic reputation is moderate at best. I think that the quality of the departments (and the professors) is quite mixed, and the absence of graduate programs definitely lowers its profile in a lot of fields.
March 14, 2006 at 2:54 pm |
Nate:
Do you have any observations regarding the seeming proliferation of BYU alumni at top graduate programs across the country? I don’t know about Harvard, but in the Michigan graduate programs (typically highly rated across the board) there were always a seemingly disproportionate number of BYU alumni. For example, the BYU presence at the Michigan law school while I was there numbered 20 or more alumni- I counted once and the only other two schools with more representatives from a single undergraduate institution were Michigan State and University of Michigan, which of course made sense.
From attending various conferences, I also got the impression that the number of BYU alumni at Harvard was also disproportionately large compared to the number of alumni from any other given undergraduate institution, save perhaps Harvard. Is that impression accurate? And if so, what are your thoughts regarding why?
March 14, 2006 at 3:03 pm |
Nate: it is generally a good strategy to approach things with low expectations–then it is difficult to be disappointed.
Jordan: It might have something to do with the fact that BYU is a large university but has few graduate programs of its own. Isn’t it true that in addition to a large number of BYU alumns at the University of Michigan Law School, there was also a disproportionate representation of BYU alumns in the German department? Whereas for other universities, at least some of the undergrads stay there for their graduate work, BYU’s lack of graduate programs forces BYU alumns into other universities for the graduate work (which, if I understand correctly, was actually the point of deciding that BYU would be primarily an undergraduate institution).
March 14, 2006 at 6:51 pm |
I have complained about BYU in the Bloggernacle now and then, and by doing so have perhaps left the impression that I hated everything about the place. But that’s really not true. Based upon most criteria you could come up with, I quite enjoyed my time there, and to the extent that I have regrets about some of my academic experiences, I can honestly say that they stem from my having made certain academic choices that in retrospect were unwise, and were my own fault.
My personal BYU angst was due largely to my disappointment over what I came to see as the failure of BYU to foster the kind of intellectually open environment that it could have potentially fostered. I agree with Fowles that the opportunity to be surrounded by one’s co-religionists at that age can be a valuable and exciting experience. That was never my problem with the place. BYU is a religiously homogenous institution by design; that is both a plus and a minus for one’s academic experience, but as long as one recognizes that, and is comfortable with the tradeoffs, I see no problem.
However, some of the real-world trade-offs were unnecessary in my view. BYU is often touted as a “safe” place where students of the LDS faith can openly integrate their religious lives and values into their academic experiences without fear of ridicule. I think it largely succeeds at this, and that’s a good thing. But it doesn’t follow that BYU needs to foster a mentality that shuns controversy or disparages ideas that offend the “religiously correct” values of certain kinds of Churchmembers. I just wanted BYU to be an environment where one could delve deeply into this or that issue without half the students getting scared and breaking into smug, self-righteous monologue. I could tell you stories, but I won’t. Suffice it to say that I think some of the distateful environment was an inevitable byproduct of lots of conservative Mormons hanging out in one place, regardless of this or that BYU policy. On the other hand, I think some of that environment was a function of certain institutional values that were top-down.
None of this changes the fact that, from day to day, I had a pretty good time at BYU.
Aaron B
March 14, 2006 at 7:14 pm |
Well, BYU does have good law and business schools, but there certainly were a large number of BYU alumni in the Michigan law and business schools.
March 14, 2006 at 11:16 pm |
Aaron, I would bet that there were ups and downs about BYU for everyone–just not necessarily the same ups and downs. In some ways, many in the Bloggernacle were are vocal about their downs on BYU had similar downs, so it has created the somewhat negative impression.
March 15, 2006 at 9:04 am |
John F.: My sense is that there are some good departments at BYU, and professors are agressive about getting their top students into good graduate programs. Furthermore, BYU students tend to be bright and the top students are very bright. Indeed, on the whole I think that the student body at the Y on average is better than the faculty in the sense that a student body of BYU’s academic quality would normally be married with a faculty of the quality of a more highly ranked institution.
I do no at HLS they made the decision not to discount BYU’s grades, which has had a positive effect on the enrollment of BYU grads. (I believe that they still do discount grades from the U. of U.) Also, I know that several eastern law schools have looked for pockets of under-recruited students with high LSATS and agressively gone after them as a way of gaming the U.S. News rankings. Hence, I know that BYU students have been aggressively targetted by Minnesota, NYU, William & Mary, and perhaps other law schools.
March 15, 2006 at 9:06 am |
“I just wanted BYU to be an environment where one could delve deeply into this or that issue without half the students getting scared and breaking into smug, self-righteous monologue.”
I completely share this sentiment, but I think that it just bugged me less than it bugged you. Differences of temperment are important here, which is one of the reasons that I think BYU is a good fit for some and not for others.
While I am generally a BYU defender, I definitely think that there are things about the school that could be improved. Alas, I am not ruler of the universe…
March 22, 2006 at 9:41 pm |
Coming late to this post, but,
I had not heard Prof. Quinn’s comment comparing BYU to Auschwitz.
Funny. I had a class from him his first year there–1976-77. Does that make him Dr. Mengele?
March 23, 2006 at 9:24 am |
great point!
March 23, 2006 at 6:00 pm |
I really enjoyed the BYU law school, all in all, while the undergraduate program was one that I wasn’t as happy with (so I graduated somewhere else) except for the religion classes. They made the honors program almost worth it.
My daughter just got accepted and is delighted. We are cautiously enthusiastic for her.
March 23, 2006 at 10:24 pm |
Congratulations on the great news Stephen.
March 24, 2006 at 4:51 pm |
This post made me think of Flammer, who taught one of my religion classes. I looked him up on the BYU website. He apparently just retired, but I was able to order his oral history from the library.
Thanks for the congrats. She is a great kid.
June 14, 2006 at 10:48 am |
no problem
June 16, 2008 at 12:24 am |
Enjoy your time there. Each person has there own experience. There were many wonderful experiences that I had there, also.